Which motor/setup for Ishima Rave E1.0R?

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Which motor/setup for Ishima Rave E1.0R?

Message par dave_007 le Jeu 5 Aoû 2010 - 13:06

Hello,

a few weeks ago I was planning to buy a MMM with 2200Kv combo. But many people have told me that the 2200Kv is mutch to powerful, you will need to tune-down the MMM a lot.
I am almost ready with the building off the Ishima Rave E1.0R but I don't still have any motor and ESC.
I will need them shortly.
So I like to have a controllable buggy with a well-balanced power.

Questions :
1) What do you think of a combination from a MambaMax Monster with the CC 1512/1800Kv motor?
Remark : I prefer to use "LiFe"packs 2x 3S1P = 19,8V
2) suppose that I don't use LiFe but instead 2x 2SLiPo = 14,8V. Is it than still a good setup or do I perhaps need to change the gearing or even to change the voltage @ 22,2V(2x 3SLiPo) or both?

Can someone give me a reasonable answer because many other are fearing those LiFe's.
But for me I'm 100% convinced to use these relative new batterypack "LiFe"!

Thank you already.

Greetings,
Dave
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Re: Which motor/setup for Ishima Rave E1.0R?

Message par Christophe le Ven 6 Aoû 2010 - 15:59

Hello,
welcome on the CBRacing forum, I'll do my best to advice you the best combo for your use, would you mind please introduce yourself by posting a topic here?

http://cbracingshop.1fr1.net/presentation-des-nouveaux-membres-f37/

Thank you Wink.

The 2200Kv combo is the most popular because he has plenty of torque and power, it's better to use a motor with more power with low ratio or tuned down settings on the controller rather than a "small" motor used at 150%, the second choice will be warm easily and quickly and finally it will drain more current because of heat.

If you want a motor to use on small track with a light car the 1512 is a good choice, it will be easier to drive, if you use the good pinion it work fine under 4S lipo.
The 1512 is lighter and it's better for the car handling.

Forget the LiFe packs, too heavy for lower capacity.

The Lipo 4s is the best choice with 1/8th buggies with 1515 2200Kv and 1512 1800Kv motors.

For the pack choice, I advice you to use one "big" 4S rather than 2S+2S packs, with 2S+2s we can have issues of battery heat when they are not perfectly paired (same resistance or closed), the worst performing pack of the pair will suffer and become hot quickly, it's why it's better to use one pack that have paired cells inside.

If you want to use more than 4S Lipo you will have to choose the good motor for this voltage :

5S > about 1650Kv
6S > about 1500Kv

With 1515 motor similar size, the Neu US 1515 serie is the best choice for 1/8th buggy.

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Re: Which motor/setup for Ishima Rave E1.0R?

Message par Sir Slide Alot le Ven 6 Aoû 2010 - 18:34

Chris i think he has to use 2 packs.



i think a 2200 is way to wild for a buggy.

i strongly suggest you a 1512 1.5Y for 4s operation.

if you wish to go to 5s or 6s you need a lower Kv to stay around 30000RPM.

LIFE batteries, i agree with Christophe.

But it is your decision if you choose to buy them, we cannot force you.

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Re: Which motor/setup for Ishima Rave E1.0R?

Message par Christophe le Ven 6 Aoû 2010 - 19:59

Hello Sir slide a lot,
yes it's the stock set up, 2S + 2S but I don't like this and I would suggest to change for RC Monster battery tray + Elite RC motor mount, easy to install.

This car was finally produced? ...

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Re: Which motor/setup for Ishima Rave E1.0R?

Message par Sir Slide Alot le Sam 7 Aoû 2010 - 7:37

Appearently yes, its around 400€ for this version.

i dont mind a 2 pack car to much but that motor position is stupid.

Mike (RC-Monster) made cars like that in 2004/2005 but he quit because the motor had to much affect on how the car behaves.

offcourse back then they ran mostly NI-MH so they had to strap 16 cells in a buggy somehow.
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Re: Which motor/setup for Ishima Rave E1.0R?

Message par Christophe le Sam 7 Aoû 2010 - 8:38

I'm agry, the motor position is not very good ... I really prefer a standard weight distribution.

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Re: Which motor/setup for Ishima Rave E1.0R?

Message par dave_007 le Sam 7 Aoû 2010 - 10:25

Hello Christophe, Sir Slide a lot,

thank you for the answers, I really appreciated it. I mean that!

Yes, I will introduce myself on the right place. A litlle start : I live in Belgium, city Mol (Antwerp)

Okay, now I'm going technical : Why those LiFe's?
And indeed those have less capacity for the same weight. You will be mad to buy those batteries, isn't it!?

My vision :
I like to drive a higher voltage because this will reduce the current for the same power.
A reduced current will lead to less heat.

Don't forget the effect from the circulating current because the relationship between heat dissipation and the current is "quadratical".
Meaning : 2 times less current = 4 times less heat!!

Before you read any further keep in mind that the Ishima is well balanced due the fact of the opposite placed batteries. Practical this well need a "serial" battery setup.

Okay, based on those LiFe 3S1P with 9,9V I will first use LiPo's 3S at 11.1V, to compare.

Sir Slide a lot's rule of thumb is about a 30000rpm running motor, sounds fair. Higher voltage = lower Kv.
I will take a NEU 1515/1.5Y/1500Kv, 424gr, 5mm shaft.
So 2x 11.1V= 22.2V (serial), 22.2V@1500Kv = 33300rpm, I think Sir slide a lot is agree.
The voltage will coming from 2 LiPo's Hyperion G3 VX 35C 2600mA 3S 11.1V (213gr) connected in serial.

Why that low capacity 2600mAh, because those LiFe's are only 2500mAh.
Again only to compare LiPo vs. LiFe.

Due the serial connection the max.cont. current wil be 35C*2.6A = 91A
The NEU 1515 "surge" power = 2500 watt, max current will be 2500/22.2V= 112.6A.
Resulting in a over-discharging the batteries, those are only 91A.

To get a full proof batteries setup you will need to take larger batteries to handle this current, suppose Hyperion G3 VX 35C 3300mA 3S 11.1V (279gr), they can handle 115.5A

LiPo setup, weight = 424gr(motor)+ 2x(279gr)batteries = 982gr



Now LiFe setup:

not much to choose 6.6V or 9.9V
I will take 2x 9.9V = 19.8V (serial)
According the 30000rpm from Sir Slide a lot, the CC 1512/1.5Y/1800Kv (370gr) will be great because: 19.8V@1800Kv = 35640rpm

The voltage will coming from 2 LiFe's Team Orion Carbon Molecular LiFe Power Pack 2500 (263gr) connected in serial.
Because the serial connection the max.cont. current wil be 60C*2.5A = 150A!
The CC 1512 "surge" power = 2000 watt, max current will be 2000/19.8V= 101A.
No problem for the LiFe's to handel this current.
LiFe setup, weight = 370gr(motor)+ 2x(263gr)batteries = 896gr

Conclusion :
1) LiPo(982gr) weight is approx. 86gr or 10% heavier than the LiFe-setup (896gr)!
2) LiPo(112.6A) discharge rate is 25% lower versus LiFe(150A)!
3) LiPo(5C) charge rate is 50% lower versus LiFe(10C)!
4) Due the lighter LiFe-setup you will need less current, this acts as a little compensation for the lower LiFe capacity(mAh)
5) As Christophe mentioned about the "serial" use, if not perfectly paired, he has a good point. But LiFe tends to be more robust and are more tolerant, so (perhaps) no problem.
6) LiFe-setup max discharge is 150A, to achieved about the same current you will need bigger packs and the weight will rise again.
Example : 2x packs Hyperion G3VX/35C/5000mA/3S/11.1V = 175A, but a rise in weight of 308gr (31%)!!
7) LiPo needs a low voltage cuttoff to protect the battery, LiFe don't need them, no battery-killing.
Cool LiFe tends to be a "long-life" pack which a much higher amount of (dis)charge cycli.

The "only" and biggest disadvantage of LiFe is the battery capacity, initially you will need more packs = more money.
But with a duo-charger (2x20A output) it is possible to charge very quickly, just a few minutes due the lower mAh. So this will eliminate the user to buy multiple packs.

Final :
LiFe (19.8V) = high voltage, high power, less current, low weight, but more battery changes.


Sir Slide a lot, Christophe,
why fearing those LiFe's?

If you reed the above theorie it looks like a good choice, isn't it? Or am I mistaking somewhere?
I don't want to be opinionated and I am sure that you guys have much more experience but for a theoreticus like me it is sometimes difficult to understand why people using things because the other person do also.

Thank you again even if you will only reading the above.
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Re: Which motor/setup for Ishima Rave E1.0R?

Message par Christophe le Sam 7 Aoû 2010 - 10:49

Hello,
for use with 3S + 3S I would advice 3300 packs with 35 or 25C.

You are right it might be good, if you try please post a topic with pictures and tell us your feelings about performances, it's very interesting.

I don't like Orion's products, many time it's only crap with a beautyful sticker and great marketing ...

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Re: Which motor/setup for Ishima Rave E1.0R?

Message par Sir Slide Alot le Sam 7 Aoû 2010 - 12:21

But my Orion 5 cell battery is awesome.

so it's crap with pretty sticker, is not always true.

For me the LIFE, i just dont like the voltage being lower, you'd need 7s to be ideal i think.

but i dont know if the full-load voltage would be ok?
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Re: Which motor/setup for Ishima Rave E1.0R?

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